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Moselio Schaechter

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« Biology By the Numbers | Main | Talmudic Question #52 »

August 17, 2009

Comments

Will Ratcliff

Hi Elio,

Thanks for the provocative post. I was going to reply, but had enough to say I figured I should make my argument in a proper blog post. You can find it here:

http://blog.lib.umn.edu/denis036/thisweekinevolution/2009/08/are_antibiotics_a_weapon_or_a.html

Thanks for the great blog.

Will Ratcliff

Paul Orwin

My argument actually applies to both signaling and competitive functions, because I'm not so sure that for signaling the amount would be small. It obviously depends on the signal being sent! For example, Quorum sensing signals are made in pretty large amounts, and the local concentration (in the squid light organ, for example) can get quite high. Also, we don't really know what the effective antibacterial concentrations of many of these compounds are in situ, so it's difficult to say whether the observed levels are consistent with that. Of course, I don't study this for a living, and Julian (and others) may have more informed input.

Elio replies:
Can't argue with that!

Paul Orwin

A provocative and interesting essay - I've been trying to think of a good way to comment on this, and am still struggling a bit, so if this comes out muddled, I apologize in advance :)

As I've said before in the comments here, it certainly seems to me that molecules with a strong antimicrobial activity ought to be presumed to have that activity for a purpose (which for bacteria in a competitive environment we can expect that purpose to relate to competition with other organisms). After all, making something like that is more costly than the equivalent type of molecule without said activity (because you have to resist its effects). Of course this logic only applies to bacterium derived antibacterials (or fungally derived antifungals, etc).

So if we are thinking about why bacteria and other soil denizens make antibiotics, it seems odd to try to ascribe a central purpose to them that is not antimicrobial, because any organism that made an antibiotic (and a resistance mechanism) principally as a communication tool would lose out to a competitor that made a similar communication molecule, but one that was non-toxic. However, making a molecule that serves both roles could be very useful, allowing you to communicate with your resistant sisters, while also causing harm to your sensitive competitors.

I think the point about heterogeneity of the soil is important as well, and although addressed, it seems to me that it needs to be addressed in the literature much more thoroughly. For example, a biofilm might produce a very high local concentration of antibiotic, clearing the nearby space for expansion. An additional consideration is pH and hydrophobicity, which may drastically alter the activity of the antibiotic in different places.

I basically agree with you about the overall complexity of the picture, however, I just would come at it from a slightly different angle. My slightly educated guess is that antibiotics do in fact play a significant role in the environment due to their killing or inhibitory effects, but that they also play a substantial signaling role, which is an "add-on" feature.

A gross oversimplification goes like this; BugA makes a secondary metabolite that kills bacteria by targeting their ribosomes, and a pump to keep it out of the cytoplasm of BugA. BugA becomes a dominant member of the soil flora, but subsequently resistance (pumps) become a part of the genomes of other members of the ecosystem. So the playing field has leveled out, but everyone is paying more to enter the system (because they all have to make the pump). BugA* enters the picture, with a twist. It makes a high-affinity antibiotic receptor, that allows it to control antibiotic and pump production based on the presence of the antibiotic. So it beats out BugA, because it saves on production costs. But now BugA* finds that antibiotic concentration is a useful signal for other things, such as biofilm formation, etc etc. Rinse and repeat a few billion times in a few trillion different places, and you've got the world we are all studying.

As a slight aside, here is another cite that adds even more complexity to the discussion. Pseudomonas (which makes a bewildering array of things) packages signals and antimicrobials into membrane vesicles, and delivers them to itself and its competitors.

Membrane vesicles traffic signals and facilitate group activities in a prokaryote.
Mashburn LM, Whiteley M.
Nature. 2005 Sep 15;437(7057):422-5.

Elio says:

I am curious to know what Julian may have to say, but for now, I wonder if your argument about energy expenditure doesn't refer to high concentrations of the antibiotic. For signaling purposes, the amount could be small, thus cheap to make.

Mark O. Martin

What a thought provoking essay, Elio! Thomas Kuhn, in his "Structure of Scientific Revolutions," argues that "paradigm shifts" are very difficult in science, as anywhere else (I like to think in terms of "energy of activation").

So we look at antibiotics---heck, consider the name!---as purely negative utilitarian molecules. The truth, as always, is less simple. There have been a couple of billion years of "darwinnowing" of nature's toolbox, after all. We see antibiotics as, for example, interacting with the large ribosomal subunit, only thinking of negative effects. There is clearly a great deal more going on than simple inhibition, as your essay and the references suggest. Yes, I tend to anthropomorphize our microbial friends, but you must admit that they are clever and subtle in their approaches---at least from the investigator's point of view!

I suspect that we will need to change the name of "antibiotics" to something more accurate as investigators start looking at this concept with fresh eyes.

As for the negative effects of these molecules at high concentrations, isn't that true for any number of molecules? I can't wait to learn more about what microbiologists uncover about life at a very small scale indeed.

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