My Photo

Moselio Schaechter

  • The purpose of this blog is to share my appreciation for the width and depth of the microbial activities on this planet. I will emphasize the unusual and the unexpected phenomena for which I have a special fascination... (more)

    For the memoirs of my first 21 years of life, click here.

Associate Bloggers



  • (Click photo for more information.)

Bloggers Emeriti


  • (Click photo for more information.)

Meetings & Sponsors

Awards

« Talmudic Question #70 | Main | We’ve Figured It Out! »

January 16, 2011

Comments

Frank Harold

Frank responds to Mark:

Well, you can't please everyone, and I evidently failed to please you! As I understand your comment, you reject my suggestion (not assumption) that the host for the proteobacterium was an "urkaryote", an ill-defined organism related to the Archaea; and that notion may indeed be mistaken. But on what basis can one reject it? I quite agree that full-fledged phagocytosis had to await the acquisition of mitochondria, but does that really mean that no endosymbiosis was possible prior to that stage? After all, we do have a few cases of endosymbiosis among prokaryotes, and now there is evidence for endocytosis in planctomycetes. My suggestion relies on special pleading, but so do all the ideas being bandied about in the literature.

I think the insuperable problem with the entire field of early cell evolution is that no hypothesis can be falsified. There is no safety even in sequences, as the debates surrounding their interpretation shows quite clearly. It all happened long ago, under circumstances very different from those that prevail today, and the trail is dead cold. If you (or any other reader) think otherwise, I would welcome an articulated alternative thesis, and would be happy to engage with it. Conversation may not solve the problem, but may help us clarify why it is all so intractable.

With best wishes, Frank Harold

Mark R

"The primordial community of prokaryotes would surely have had a niche for some sort of primitive scavenger or predator (presumably related to the Archaea)"

"That task has not yet been fully accomplished, but the argument that predation based on phagocytosis is key to the rise of the eukaryotes (6,7) seems to me sound."

It's casual assumptions like these that can render anything else somebody has to say on the subjects as nearly meaningless.

As Lane has repeatedly pointed out, phagocytosis is a dynamic energy intensive behaviour, specifically the type of behavior only possible AFTER something like mitochondria are acquired. Cyanobacteria might have been captured by phagocytosis and enslaved as chloroplasts (people keep forgetting that all eukaryotes with chloroplasts also have mitochondria), but the facultatively anaerobic eubacterium ancestor of mitochondria and hydrogenosomes had to be acquired some other way.

It was probably precisely because that predator niche had never been filled more than haphazardly by bacteria that could only stage chemical attacks on their brethren that made a spectacular early stage of eukaryote evolution possible. Life filling empty niches for the first time always undergo rapid evolution to fit the niche.

HC Hunter

Sublime science writing, thank you! There is so much to ponder here - and the possibilities/implications are advanced with such gracious humility too.

barry

energy per nucleoid! that is interesting.

question: was only one prokaryotic lineage able to evolve this endosymbiotic energy scrounging ability? and why? and how dependant on encapsulation is this mechanism?

I)
now bacteria certainly produce coordinated consortia of clones, so while the energy per physical nucleoid is the same, the energy per 'allele' is much greater than for a lone bacteria. how do we think about this? within each cell, the genome has the same small energy at its disposal, but within the community, that identical genome has a large energy at its disposal.

where in the process of evolution does the difference manifest itself? if one cell of the community gets an interesting mutation, that new mutant alele doesn't immediately have the whole community's energy throghput at its disposal. that will only happen if the new allele spreads through the community.

II)
2nd idea: multispecies consortium. is there some mechanism for proto-mitochondria to feed proto-hosts without being engulfed? hmmm i don't know enough. aren't there multispecies consortia where each species plays a different metabolic role in dealing with some substrate? maybe where one eliminates some dangerous waste product like oxygen or something.

now in this setting, just how much centralization is possible, how much energy production can a single external host scrouge from multiple 'parasites'?

III)
third stage: the endosymbiotic alternative: host with genome A swallows mitochondrial symbiote with genome B. if there is one symbiote per host, not much advantage. and furthermore the symbiote's energy production has to feed its own nucleoid.

for this process to work does most of the symbiote's genome have to get transfered to the host nucleoid? i suppose so, for otherwise, the symbiote's genes are competing with the hosts for the symbiote's energy production. it's only when most of the symbiote's genes are moved to the host's nucleoid and thus the total energy production is supporting only ONE set of genes do we get an advantage.

you seem to be saying that increased available energy per nucleoid allows the nucleoid to evolve into larger sizes and more complexity. however it seems to me that to get this energy advantage the host nucleoid must already be able to swallow the parasite's genes.

it seems to me that the ability for the host nucleoid to absorb the parasite's genes is key here.

so now two questions:

1) don't bacteria, archebacteria already have the ability to absorb genes from other genomes? but are you suggesting they stay streamlined because they lack the energy sources that eukaryotes have at their disposal? so now we have a chicken and the egg problem

that's a question i dont have a lot of data on. what's the variation out there in prokariotic ability to expand their genomes?

2) the flipside of the host being able to absorb genes from the parasite is why does the parasite permanantly lose the genes?

II.5)
are there any lichen like prokaryotic mutualisms out there where both members exchange metabolites and one member has absorbed the other member's genes? so again i'm asking to what extent is encapsulation required for this mechanism to work?

IV)
SO WHAT MADE THIS EVOLVE?
now is it that only a few lineages had a predilection for expanding genomes and contracting genomes or can most prokaryotes do these things and it's just a function of the endosymbiotic arrangement? if that's the case, why didn't/doesn't this happen more often within the prokaryotes?

i think i recall that there are multiple lineages of chloroplast endosymbioses? but is there only one mitochondrial like one? or is it that there seems to be only ONE lineage that became the eukaryotic host?


Philip Ashton

Thank you for another really interesting post.

I would love to read a post on Archaea one of these days.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been saved. Comments are moderated and will not appear until approved by the author. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Comments are moderated, and will not appear until the author has approved them.

Teachers' Corner

Podcast

How to Interact with This Blog

  • We welcome readers to answer queries and comment on our musings. To leave a comment or view others, remarks, click the "Comments" link in red following each blog post. We also occasionally publish guest blog posts from microbiologists, students, and others with a relevant story to share. If you are interested in authoring an article, please email us at elios179 at gmail dot com.

Subscribe via email

  • Enter your email address:

Translate




Search




MicrobeWorld News

Membership