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Moselio Schaechter

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« Talmudic Question #72 | Main | Talmudic Exobiology Redux »

March 07, 2011

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C_Zen

to respond to the reviewer that said " I am disappointed that they didn't show it was specifically bacteria in the gut that produced these effects, they simply assumed it." i looked up the paper and found that they did actually test this by taking germ-free mice and lettting them 'conventionalize' and they found them to be identical to the SPF mice. Here's their excerpt,"To test whether conventionalization in early life of GF mice could “normalize” the increased motor activity and alter the anxiety behavior, we conventionalized a new set of GF mice with microbiota obtained from SPF mice 30 d before mating and allowed the progeny to mature in an isolator with bacteria. Adult conventionalized offspring (CON) were behaviorally tested as described above. The rearing activity of the CON mice was significantly different from that of GF mice (P < 0.05) and did not differ from that of SPF mice (Fig. 1E). "


HC

A very interesting post, thanks, and a thoughtful response from daedalus2u. I too think along similar lines on autism.
I do not have professional expertise to add to this discussion; I would only make the following observations:
You state Micah that it is commonly accepted that in utero humans are germ-free, yet there have been studies showing microbes in the amniotic fluid including this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20331587

I also feel the same as daedalus2u. Why has the assumption been made that the cause is bacteria only within the gut? There is increasing research evidence of persistent intra-cellular pathogens.

Thirdly, I suggest caution in using mouse-models for any study of the relationship between microbes and human immune functions. Humans have a different innate immune system to rats and mice:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2716374/?tool=pubmed

daedalus2u

The gut is not the only place where commensal bacteria are important. I am disappointed that they didn't show it was specifically bacteria in the gut that produced these effects, they simply assumed it.

My research is on ammonia oxidizing bacteria living on the external skin surface where they oxidize ammonia into nitric oxide and nitrite and this has significant effects on physiology by regulating the NO/NOx status.

http://books.google.com/books?id=a3mwmXzpsjkC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA103#v=onepage&q&f=false

My hypothesis is that providing substrate to this biofilm is the reason for essentially all non-thermal sweating; that non-thermal sweating is a mechanism to release ammonia to the (normally present in the “wild”) biofilm which is promptly turned into NO and nitrite and absorbed. “Stress” is a low NO/NOx state, stress induced sweating (psychosocial, infectious, shock induced) is (my hypothesis) compensatory to provide the NO/NOx that is needed to successfully compensate for the “stress”.

This can have endocrine effects too. NO inhibits the rate limiting step of androgen synthesis. Low NO increases androgen levels, high androgen levels cause expansion of pubic hair which expands the niche where the bacteria live and increases the NO/NOx they produce and increases its absorption by the skin.

Low NO due to the loss of these bacteria mimics a high stress state, and so exacerbates every disorder that is made worse by “stress”. Many neuropsychiatric disorders are caused/exacerbated by stress, for example PTSD, depression, psychosis.

Your thinking regarding autism mimics my own. I think that low NO/NOx from too much bathing has skewed physiology in the developed world to higher stress phenotype, and that includes the ASD phenotype.

http://daedalus2u.blogspot.com/2008/10/theory-of-mind-vs-theory-of-reality.html

One of the most characteristic symptoms of autism is a larger brain with a larger number of minicolums with more but smaller neurons. The number of minicolumns is fixed at ~8 weeks gestation.

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