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Moselio Schaechter

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« Talmudic Question #88 | Main | A Table for Two »

June 11, 2012

Comments

Mark Vincent

Thanks to all you for posting comments, and especially to Marcy and Garry Nolan for taking it seriously.

There are parts of this whole thesis about which I feel more confident, and parts that I am less sure of. It is difficult, for instance, to see what long-term advantage there is to metazoa to have their constituent cells go rogue, and destroy the metazoan body in the process; how can this trait be passed on to offspring to give them a leg up over the competition, unless the parents themselves are the competition. And as one goes a little way up the eukaryotic tree, it is increasingly unlikely that the entire metazoan itself can be re-constituted from one rogue breakaway cell. It is possible, however, that in simple metazoa this strategy might have been advantageous under conditions of stress, as an alternative to encystment, say. Perhaps just breaking away in the water and going it alone might not necessarily have entailed eating the rest of the organism, although this kind of macro-autophagy ("cancer cachexia", or microbial cannibalism) could be a survival strategy under conditions of nutritional deprivation, or other environmental stress.

There are many conditions which might signal to the cell that the whole organism was in trouble; food shortage is surely one of them; injury is another; chemical toxicity,including attack from other species; thermal stress, pH, salinity etc; every environmental parameter has its limits as to what can be tolerated and metazoan cells talk to each other constantly.

"But cancer as cellular growth with the brake lines cut...": this is not excluded by what I am saying, but cancer is so much more than that. The whole nature of the beast changes very fundamentally; it's not just normal cells piling up. They are different chromosomally,they have a very different energy economy, they cannot die properly, they skillfully exploit the host and they truly resemble microbes in so many ways (see the diagrams). Since all cancer cells end up almost the same as each other, it is much more likely that what we have is an ancient program de-repressed as a result of the cutting of the brakelines (eg by mutagens), and not a new invention every time, that just happens to end up the same.

I think the cell is a "kluge"; it has to build on top of what came before, and what came before metazoa were microbes. Protists, if you like. When the brakes are cut, this is what sits up and grunts.

I don't think we know what the long term prospects were for single cells in a primitive aquatic environment. Single cells have a number of advantages over multicellular animals: motility, for one, and another, they are more difficult to catch and eat. Furthermore, they can mutate more without threatening the integrity of the whole organism. And they can probably survive on less food, and also survive dessication by encystment easier than a larger animal.

I agree this is all difficult to prove or disprove; however, we do know it is possible to culture enormous quantities of transformed cells in aquatic environments, eg hybridomas, to commercially make antibodies, so I don't see anything inherently impossible about it.

Thanks again to all

M

marcia stone

Mark --It doesn’t matter if it gets proved that cancer cells are protozoa or not ---what matters is that viewing cancer cells as pathogens rather than a corrupted form of self could help researchers find different ways of defeating them. Let’s face it, what we’ve got now isn’t doing all that much good.

Besides, if they walk like protozoa and quack like protozoa whose to say cancer cells aren't protozoa?

David Oldach

Fascinating.
With regard to what might trigger a cell 'to cut its' losses'....

While reading Marcia's original post (which was terrific, by the way)...
zoxanthellae, the endosymbiotic photosynthetic dinoflagellates of coral species and tridacnid clams came to mind...which, under stress conditions, exit the host (coral blanching)(not clear which organism makes that call..the host, or the symbiont). [Fortunately, our mitochondria are better tied down, or there would be alot of humans walking around with profound lactic acidosis (at best!)].

Thanks for a very stimulating piece.

Nathan Myers

Throughout most of multicellular history, all such creatures lived in the water. Any cell that broke loose would merely be obliged to compete directly with any other microbes present. When one cell experienced conditions that suggested it go its own way, probably many others would come to the same conclusion, and the creature might seem to dissolve. Under less trying circumstances, daughter cells would remain together after mitosis, and eventually grow to a complete creature again. I cannot help seeing this latter process as a precursor to ontogeny, and the former to sporulation.

Cancer in land-dwelling species then would be a recent special case where the only viable environment for the breakaway cells is within the parent creature. Slime molds might be seen as a cunning adaptation of the process to dry conditions. Are there aquatic slime molds?

The connection to mutation rates does not seem a problem: life uses accumulation of mutations as a primitive control mechanism for other processes, including apoptosis.

We should be able to test the hypothesis by studying tumors in small marine worms. Maybe some still do this routinely and no one noticed, or noticed but misunderstood.

Mark Abellera

I think this is an interesting theory, but ultimately wishful thinking. I don't know as much about intercellular dynamics within a tumor as I should. And I certainly cannot rule this out as one shouldn’t given evolutionary heritage. But cancer as cellular growth with the brake lines cut still seems the most parsimonious explanation. What conditions trigger a cell to think "okay, time to cut my losses and get out of this thing"? And if so, why does the occurrence of cancer match up so well with basic statistical mutation rates? What survivability could it expect by parting ways with its partners? With the exception of the very rare transmissible tumor types, a runaway cell has virtually no long-term prospects.

There’s just something off with attributing a kind of agency to an individual cell within a highly evolved multicellular organism. Particularly in light of suicidal apoptosis, which is going on all of the time. As Nolan mentions in the article, this would be a very difficult thing to prove. The outline of an ancient stealth program should be sought within the genome, not just with similar functional pathways.

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